From yesowitc@rocza.kei.com Mon Jun 10 16:15:58 1996 Return-Path: yesowitc@rocza.kei.com Received: from rocza.kei.com (yesowitc@rocza.kei.com [192.88.144.31]) by ensta.ensta.fr (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA04264 for ; Mon, 10 Jun 1996 16:15:27 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from yesowitc@localhost) by rocza.kei.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA17596 for kalt@ensta.fr; Mon, 10 Jun 1996 10:15:05 -0400 (EDT) From: "M. D. Yesowitch" Message-Id: <199606101415.KAA17596@rocza.kei.com> Subject: Channel matters To: kalt@ensta.fr Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 10:15:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: O Path: news.kei.com!news-mail-gateway!not-for-mail From: yesowitc@rocza.kei.com (M. D. Yesowitch) Newsgroups: kei.mail.irc-operlist Subject: Re: idea for channel service (extremely long) Message-ID: <199605282257.SAA27944@rocza.kei.com> Date: 28 May 96 22:57:56 GMT References: yesowitc@rocza.kei.com (M. D. Yesowitch) Distribution: kei Organization: Local Mail/News Gateway Approved: usenet@kei.com Lines: 109 > From: sandman@dobie.dsnet.com (sandman ) > Well thats pretty arrogant for someone to not do anything you obviously > fall in that catagory....and the antagonism.....and the lack of respect > for people and their rights...You are the kind of ircop that is a relic > of the past and the kind we don't want or need... A few points about this post before I address the subject. 1) Roger coded TS, he does not fall into the catagory of those who deny and do nothing about a problem. Your comments in this regard are unwarrented and incorrect. 2) Roger is not an irc operator. He runs and tests code. He is exactly the sort of the person who is needed. He is someone who is willing to answer questions, accept meaningful imput and above all, test before releasing his code on an unsuspecting mass of ircnet. Now, to the main discussion. sandman (herein after "recursion") said: >To satisfy the bot authors as people exercising the freedom of expression >under the first amendment then it would amount to 1 channel bot >per-channel. ths bot would be registered with the service or services it >is coming from. You seem to imply bot running is a constitutional right. It is not. You begin with a false premise. Your basic argument stems from this: The creater of a channel should control the channel. This underlying ideal is correct, however distorted. On efnet, once the channel owner moves on, by signing off or leaving the channel to go to a different channel, he currently forfits some rights to the channel. don't. On dalnet the channel owner establishes ownership by registering his channel at which point he can then decide is he wants to be supreme ruler (auto deop on channel creation) or not. On undernet, the channel owners, if there is enough interest, and they pass a vote of the channel committe, jointly share control and rights to the channel. The other networks use varients on these three themes. There are basic concepts, ideologies, underlying these systems. EFnet - you own it as long as you own it. DALnet - you own it as long as you use it at least once a month Undernet - you own it when there are enough people interested in seeing the channel exist and ever after. Although it's not often acknowledged, and even less frequently stated, what people mean when they say "if you want channel services go to undernet/dalnet" is "What you want doesn't conform to our underlying ideology. Your ideology is more conformant with another network." Now beyond this point at which we've seen the premise you started with is incomplete by virtue of the fact that there isn't a clear majority who agrees with it, there are technical issues. Tom and I have spent countless hours hashing out a service that would appeal to us and it must have the following things. 1) anonymity 2) verification of validity of claims through as anonymous a medium as possible. 3) secured machine 4) anonymous rmailer that allows the channel owner to communicate with the maintainers of the system in a way that preserves the anonymity of the channel owner and perhaps the system maintainer as well. 5) A way to block channel registration on a specific channel. 6) A channel registration service, similar to dalnet (ie: extrinsic to channel). On top of this we'd need a set of rules for the verification service to use. For example: If the number of kick/bans for this user exceed a certain amount, he can not be counted as channel member. This might be proportional to the amount of times he joins the channel. If for ever two times I join the channel I get kicked out once and oped once, am I a regular or a bloody pain in the rear? How many people constitute a channel? (for dalnet, it's 1, for undernet, it was once 5 but I hear tell it's 10 now.) etc. etc. So even after we've already said maybe we're not interested in channel services because it doesn't conform to our underlying ideology, there's a still several giant steps before we can reach a channel service model. When the people on this list say "You clearly haven't thought this through", they may say it in a rude way, but it's meant very seriously. Instead of being rude and insulting back, prove that they are wrong. Show them that you have thought about it, that you have some ideas and that you have a valuable contribution. Don't rely on blanket assertions and unsupported premises, that what makes this list tedious to read. (well, that and long, preachy, moralist bullshit) -m And I am sorry for the length but I have held off posting on this topic for over a week. **************************************************************************** M.D. Yesowitch yesowitc@rocza.kei.com All Flames to: women-not-to-be-messed-with@kei.com http://www.kei.com/homepages/yesowitc/  -- -M. D. Yesowitch *************************************************************************** ** M.D. Yesowitch InterSystems Corporation ** ** 11 Vinal Street, Apt. 10 yesowitc@rocza.kei.com ** ** Brookline,MA 02146 http://www.kei.com/homepages/yesowitc/ ** ** (617) 738-9815 Work # (617) 225-3076 ** ***************************************************************************